Curse

Goonter · Oct 30, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Heres the thing. When I first picked up guildwars I thought, "Cool, a roleplaying game". Then after playing it I had all of these suggestions to improve the roleplaying aspect like increase lvl cap or rebalance some classes for 1vs1 purposes and other nonscene. (I still hold on to some of my ideas though.)

But after sometime with the game I think...GWs isnt really much of a roleplaying game. Its got aspects of a rpg, but it isnt one in design.
Lot of us make it out to be one though, due to either misplaced expectations like my own or they just happen to develop a way to roleplay in this game because thats what they want to do.

So, What is Guildwars then? In my mind, its something like Gauntlent meets Unreal 2004 meets Magic the Gathering.
Whatever you want to label it as, at is core it requires teambased stradigies and build flexablity.
PvE rewards not in character advancement, but in character uniquness.
PvP rewards in slightly simular fashion except there is a larger emphasis on bragging rights than uniqness.

So most of what Im about to suggest is mostly for PvE in thinking about what would be a relief to have in a game that focuses most of its energy on teambased stradigy and character flexability and still managing to rewarding players that acomplishes goals based on this premise without ever comprimising, even the slightest, the abovementioned focus.

1. Team Menus (teambased and character flexabilty)
Ive beaten this into the ground and Im only bringing it up here because I think it would be the priorty thing to do.
Teams see teammates skill bars in a team menu.
Dont guess, dont take someones word for it. Everyone will have the oppertunity to see what thier team is lining up and can plan accordingly to each others skill selection.

2. Flexable Henchmen. (teambased and character flexabilty)
Now that we can see what everyone is bringing, why not let henchmen have more than 6 or so skills. They can have a pool of 20 or more skills that the team leader can create a henchmen skill set with. Not sure what this means to Henchmen AI. This could cause more problems than help if henchmen AI cant use the skill set you give him. In such a case, "skill sets" for henchmen so can select from a varity of builds that the AI knows how to use.

3. Build Sets. (character flexablity and saves time)
This is an often brought up suggestion, but it needs to go here.
The idea is - you create a build, name it and save it and then its set forever.
You can go from Trapper to Beastmaster in 2 clicks, attributes and all. What a time saver.

4. Flexable Runes. (character flexabilty)
Not sure how to do this, but runes need to be able to come on and off armor without having to invest as much money/time it currently takes into doing so. The rune economy, imo, destorys character flexablity.
Maybe add a rune fitter to keep existing money sinks place.
Once you have the rune you keep it indefinatly; but to take it off and place a new one on you pay a rune fitter a modest price to do it for you.
I wont go futher into a brainstorm in how it can be done, but simply state, it should be done. Money sinks should be invested almost purely into costumaztion options like unique armors, hairdos, emotes etc etc. Anything competitive related should be swappable like skills on a skillbar. Consider how freeing up attrubute points helped in this cause. Once you have runes, you have them and thats all so you can customize without being pentalized.

5. Changing Secondary Profession without talking to NPCs. (character flexabilty and saves time)
Once you do the quest to change your secondary, there really is no reason to have to map around to change it. Not for story, not for replay value, not for anything other than it was probably quicker to program it in its current fashion and no ones complaining about it. Im not saying "Omg this sucks" Im just saying, minor or not, its a nuisance. Change secondary profession from your player menu while in towns once you do the quest. Id suggest a 15 second timer on changing it again.

6. Weapons. (character flexabilty)
Do it just like armor. There isnt armor with +9 armor vs. physcal... Its +10 and thats all.
Add weapons crafters with weapons mods that are +10 sundering or +5 energy all the time. Basiclly everything that armor is in GWs so should weapons be. Instantly customized, 15k versions, you get the picture.
All options and all mods are avalibule at max potentual at selectable crafters.
I can see this idea getting much heat for peoples love of yellow and green colored weapons to show off. But remember, this idea does not replace things worth showing off. The varity of cool looking weapons can differ from crafter to crafter and there are ways in making sure that certain looking weapons are valuable.

7. Random Mobs. (teambased)
Im not sure what kind of technical feat Id be suggesting here, but this does make a certain amount of sense. Outside of areas that arent mission based, mobs should be much more random in placement and varity. For the same reason you cant tickle yourself, the lasting appeal that PvP has that PvE doesnt is that combat is always varied. If its so possably move this variation in combat into PvE. This would also discourage to some degree the reptitively rewarding process of farming. To those that play to accumulate wealth, there are still options and much better things to show for it in my following suggestions.

8. Improved and Unique AI for the complete beastary.(teambased)
I think Ive noticed slight variances in AI - creature to creature, but not enough for me to treat one differently than I would treat the next.
PvE doesnt respone to a metagame; its always the same.
Once something is discovered and shared as working the best, its pretty much over for varity in PvE.
Constant AI updates? That may increase the "bug" factor of updating them.
Instead, with random mobs, add unique AI in so much that its evidant that a stadigy that works for one group of mobs do not work well against anothers.

A few post down I get into how its better to experance and meet a unique challenge.
But how different can it always be when facing artifical intelligance?
The solution is to make each journay different as many times as possable when repeating it.

9. Better Rewards for Complete Quest.(teambased)
Completing quest and missions should always reward higher than killing mobs.
I get into specifics of how this can happen with replay value futher down this post.
Imo, this is positive shift in how the game is played.
This would be like moving the purpose to go to UW or SF to complete the quest there and not farming for ecto or green weapons.

10. Quick Swap PvP created character.(saves time)
PvP created characters are accessable on the fly in competitive areas.
Say your in your guildhall or HoH, and your guild needs a monk to fill out the roster but your there with your warrior.
You simple click on one of your PvP premades and poof! your team has a monk.
Saves lots of time. Id suggest a 15 second timer for changing again.

11.Player Search for PvE and PvP. (saves time)
In towns your PvE search allows you to search across districts for players.
In competitve areas it lets you search for PvP players across districts.

12. Elites are never in missions. (teambased)
They are only in questing areas.
This way, missions have a better focus for everyone thats on it. Dividing players with either doing the secondary or not is splitting up the focus enough.
What has happen is either a person groups, gets his elite and drops or players dont group and repeat the mission with henchmen as many times as neccessary complete his skill collection. This increases grind (though slightly) and increases potentual for possable griefing.
A better way would be to keep all elites in questing areas, each one of the same class in as many different areas as possible.

13.Completely get rid of infusing. (saves time)
It probably seemed better on paper than practice. Whats it turned into is infusion runs which gets reduntant. Infuse the character not the cloths or take up other idea I suggest later and add an infused accessory that complete infuses you when equiped.

Ok, some of my suggestions have "ruined" certain aspects of the current economy, which is..for some reason, close to many hearts.
With runes being hotswappable and weapon/mod crafters there is no way to have runes and weapons for sell. They are off the market.
Plus, mobs are smarter and radomized plus missions/quests are often more rewarding than farming anyhow.
In a way, it sort of balances out. But even still, ill try to patch up some of the conserns that may raise.

Remember, there is an auction option coming on the way.
The materals needed to craft nice looking weapons and armors should be hot stuff.
Though farming may be a little harder through my suggestions, it isnt impossable and it wont stop. So instead, imbrace it.
With materal merchants gone it will be up to players to provide the materals that other players will want to create items.
Get rid of the NPC merchants and make the players bring these materals to the community. It will profit a farmer to bring these items to the community, instead of profiting for there own sake.
I also suggest a shift in collector materals and items. Collecters wont need to pass out weapons anymore so instead, they should pass out something of new value.
Ive stated this before and I think the hallowing candy thats come up this weekend supports this idea.
Im suggesting (again) an extra armor slot for an accessory item. The items bonus is strictly for PvE. The way to get the items is through collectors.
Once an accessory item is bought, it is customized. Im not going to get into bonus possablities, but I will say that they should probably be situational yet benifual.
And now, get rid of the trade feature. The only items worth trading are materals, collectable items and dyes (and a small number of other things). This is all handled through the auctions.
Add loads of hair styles, emotes and other pretty customiztions for solid money sinks.

Now, I said that quest would have replay value. This is really important, because what if you and your guild has complete UW and you recruit a few new players that want to complete it too. Whats in it for you? Actually, the extra EXP. is good, but to my understanding, the way this game is often played is through multible characters to unlock skills for a PvP character. So once a PvE player gets the skills he wants, hes not going to brake his neck collecting every skill possable for one toon. (typically) Any quest that can be redone rewards with a collectors item. The item goes towards a rewarding accessory for your troubles.

PvE characters and PvP characters are on equal footing in combat almost all the time now. PvE characters will just be more colorful.

To sum up - Keep it skill based and not equipment based (not even in the slightest). Keep it team focused. Keep it flexable. Make it as easy as possible for players to do these things to decrease downtime.
The challenge and rewards in PvE is to becoming visually unique. (the "edge" in PvE will be provided by accessories only which is also a challenge and reward to obtain)
And it needs to be both challenging and rewarding while at the same time keeping it focused as mentioned.

Symeon · Oct 30, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I kinda agree with your point and I think all those ideas are good ones.
I thought of one idea meself:

-team rewards. As we want it to focus more on teambased strategy but still rewarding, i think this is a good idea, no? I know everyone gets something from missions and quests from item pickups, but what could be better for encouraging all this teamwork than rewarding for it? on missions, and some major quests e.g. galrath, sorrows furnace, and fow and uw, at the 'end' - in quests this would be when the quest's objective has been completed, not when the quest reward has been accepted. This would help to bring teambased strategy out of almost all being in pvp to also in pve, because it means that the players have something to look forward to for their teamwork.
The rewards could be like money, or faction for pvp, or materials.

Goonter · Oct 30, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Not a bad idea. I think one of the most garrenteed ways to make PvE missions that reward teams over individuals is missions designed for guilds.
Im going to branstrom this one...

After winning HoH, or completing UW or FoW or some challenge, you get an option at your guildhall for a PvE challenge.
The challenge wont except henchmen.
If you complete the challenge you get a score and a PvP map for your guild to have intraguild matches on. The score determains a faction reward. (faction for a different god) You can do the missions again to get better scores and get more faction. This faction unlocks decoratables for your guildhall.
You can get more guild PvE missions and unlock more intraguild PvP maps than just one. There are multible ones and different methods for recieving each.
This would be especally nice for HoH because the rewards it provides is declining in value. Where ever you recieve these rewards, it should be added that the rewards for PvE guild missions can only be recieved when with a set number of guild members on your team.

Sidenote idea..

14.Drops Box. (reduces griefing)
When ever you recieve a drop its yours permenantly and never frees up. Instead, you can select your drops box and see everything in the area thats been dropped for you.
I can select to 1.) Retrieve or 2.) Disregard
If you retrieve your character attempts to pick up the item, if you disregard it frees the item for anyone to pick up.
Though minor, it could help players to decide not to let players stay dead in order to retrieve thier special drop.

This idea supports the idea to kick players because with it, you cant grief for loot.

15.Kick Player. (reduces griefing)
By a unanimous vote all players can agree to replace one player with a henchmen.
Id say the system works like - You go to the team menu and request a player kick. A message shows up to the team and they can look in the player menu to see who was requested for a kick. If everyone agrees, that person is replaced by a henchmen.
This player drops any recently recieved quest items.
All of his other drops go with him.

The only con (to prevent abuse) is...you cant kick 2 griefers.

Goonter · Oct 31, 2005, 05:27 PM // 17:27

This is a bump but to make it worth while...
Heres a theory I have..

In roleplaying games in order to recreate the process of how one learns and masters a skill in real life, they have implemented point and click repetitive tasking.
Because in real life you have to practice a skill and over time, the more you do it the better you get at it.
For roleplaying purposes this is appropriate.
However, a large number of people that plays rpgs dont roleplay. And now, for them, repetitive tasking is grinding.
So people create macros and such so they dont have to roleplay and to advance to the point they are happy with, ultimately acting as a hindrance to them instead of an enjoyable experience.
Yet consider how people that love to play Soul Caliber or Battlefield. Its the same characters, same weapons, same maps, over and over and over...yet the since of "grind" is not there.
You are learning an actual skill and your actually progressing your knowledge and reflexes of competitive reasons and not your "toon" pretending to learn skills for roleplay purposes.
One person can put themselves into their character so when their character grinds their character advances, its roleplay and its fun. The other person does not put himself into his character so the only grind worth while is for player skill advancement not toon advancement.

Lots of people enjoy social games so they move to rpgs and at the same time like getting straight into the action so they hate the grind rpgs offer. Diablo is a type of game that fixes this, except from what Im told, it suffers from unbalanced equipment so the victor is the one that farms or buys from ebay, instead of one that knows how to play with skill.

Guildwars remedies this...mostly. In so far as, a skilled group of lvl18 players with ok weapons can take down an unskilled group with PvP characters. Player skill takes the lead in GW.

In PvE the meager grind it takes to go from lvl 1 to 20 is a nice adventure in GW. Getting basic armor and collector’s weapons isnt often to much of a hassle either.
But I think some of the properties of other rpgs are so entrenched in everyones thinking that some of them have creped into GW.
But as most of us are coming to discover for ourselves, GWs is not a rpg.

Imo, the basic attributes for combat should be even for everyone at all times. No one should have to luckout or grind/farm for cash for runes or weapons with the best stats.
The game takes a lot of steps to insure this but it seems to stop right at the finish line.

Heres a clue. Remember when infusion runs took 5 trips to get a complete set?
There were those that defended it and called it a fun race that was part of the game design. But do people still race there now?
Only as often as it takes to infuse another piece of armor. No one does it just to do it. It seems what determines "fun" is the worth while process of rewarding your actions. What if UW no longer dropped ecto? Would it be "fun" to farm then? The rewards for empowering your toon through repetitive processing is here in GWs. Im suggesting to remove any and all traces of this.
..not so say ecto shouldnt be farmed for pretty armor...but that ecto shouldnt be farmed to afford good runes and weapon mods.
Likewise, you shouldnt have to redo a mission youve completed unless you liked it. Not because you need to to protect you from certain NPCs.
I think if you add enough pretty armors and other stand out stuff, this would be incentive enough for players to stay around and meet that challenge. (look at what fissure armor can do to the market and it doesnt increase anything for your toon)

And if a 1 second can be shaved off the time it takes to do something for preparing of gameplay, it should be done. We can warp from town to town, but...hold up, I need to fix my build again...ok..whats he bringing? Five to 10 minutes later we are finally on our way.

I know my topic isnt about grind, but it is about flexibility and the two bump heads.
Im saying make faster flexibility and faster teaming and planning as humanly possible to increase time playing the game instead of time preparing to play the game.
The ideas that are about moving around mobs and elites is for varied gameplay to increase the challenge of teamplay (like PvP) and to reduce the sensation of a dream you keep waking up from.
I tell you the truth, when some tells me something and I already know what they are going to say, I dont even what to listen to them...whats the point? Even at work, doing the same thing again and again is only because it makes ends meet.
We all like different. When we see something different, when somebody says something different when we do something different we like it.
This is wyy games have a shelve life too. Its only different for so long.
Then, its the community that keeps us together, socially and competitively.

Am I making any sense?

Fitz Rinley · Nov 01, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I have no problems with ruining the current economy of Guild Wars. I do not have the patience to stand around for an hour trying to sell things while the screen jumps and splutters with hundreds of lags. I have other things to do. This is not gaming and it accomplishes nothing of value. I have earned 99% of my money at SS. Regardless of what I find, max or not, I can make a grand or more an hour doing something instead of standing around making making nothing, or wasting moeny on keys to see if a chest will have something to sell. In a profit and loss scenario. Work still works better than risk.

I very much feel that Guild Wars is an advanced form of Soul Calibuk or Tekken at this point. It is Tekken with cinematics. Unless and until I see this change, I will not back up or down from this position.

Role playing does not not mean such strict personification that there is no social value or interaction between the persons behind the personas. I am entirely for role playing areas. I am undertain how to deal with some of the crude and socially juvinile behavior that I have departed form in the towns. Direct, base, and lewd offers made in offensive language that no filter will pick up have been and remain a problem. And in some roles this might not always be out of character, if all parties were known to be consented and understood.

I am 1,000% against having guild specific quests unless they can be performed by a guild of 1. I am my guild. I have never invited anyone into my guild because I would never expect anyone else to be willing to (or for personality reasons maybe even capable of) following me. I am not subordinate enough to submit to someone else and be ruled by them. I will never trust someone enough to be controlled by, ordered by, or limited in my expression by their guild guidelines.

One thing that Guild Wars is completely lacking in, and surprisingly so given the history they outline, is any functional system of alliances. Guilds do not have the ability to host other guilds in their halls as guests (as far as I can tell), ally with other guilds, form superior orders that represent alliances (as the Blackwatch came out of a confederacy of specific clans).

It is the human behavioral aspects and the normal poltical aspects that should be natural in the functions of the game that I find missing here.

I am not willing to accept GW as a game of human appearing icons treated as machines to be assembled and reassembled according to the manager's whim. That is an unethical teaching for our younger players to grow up thinking of the image of man by. I am not willing to accept GW as an advanced form of Tekken where plot, motive, purpose, and reason are not the driving purposes to ethically entering into the taking of life and the expression of both our most divine and most bestial natures. GW can be an RPG in the the vitual realm. GW can be functional in the areas I have crittiqued. GW can be ethical and still not be diminished by those that would weaken humanity with the cowardice of failing to face both its greatest aspirations and its greatest demons.

For those who think this is only a game, they forget that it is in such games that we play out the collective unconscious, the myth of invariance, and in our youth prepare those images of humanity with which we will define our world. While limited to our biology, we hone our humanity by our society. Cyberspace has replaced television and mother as the preparer of tomorrow's generation.

Fitz Rinley

Racthoh · Nov 01, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

The rune part I completely agree about. In a skill based game, how is it fair to force a player to spend (monks especially) several platinum just to test something out in the PvE environment. Just stupid really, when any PvP character after unlocking the runes can just make a new toon with anything they want. There is supposed to be a balance between the two aspects of this game, and the current method doesn't reflect it. I ID an armour, Superior Vigor, salvage attempt fails but all my PvP characters can now use a Superior Vigor? Doesn't seem fair.

The whole guild aspect should reflect in some manner in the PvE community. Again, the two worlds are supposed to be closely tied together, and if we have to win the stupid favor just to get to the fun parts of the PvE world at least make getting a guild mean something to us.

The goal of both PvP and PvE is basically being unique and bragging rights, however looking different with pretty coloured dye just doesn't warrant all that hard work. The Guild Ladder is really all there is to it as far as bragging rights since any idiot can make a w/r and farm faction with random IWAYers and abuse the fame system. The fame system, which has created a group of elitists who shun those of a lower rank and really kills the fun factor for newer players. Somewhat off topic, but it just bugs me so. In the end it's so hard to get some good PvP experience and form a guild that can compete against these elitists to actually make a stand and maintain a decent position on the ladder. Not to mention the smurf guilds who abuse the ladder, just nonsense.

Goonter · Nov 01, 2005, 07:11 AM // 07:11

To Fritz.

that....was...a little heavier than anything I was trying to approch....

And a little confusing..

Quote:

It is Tekken with cinematics. Unless and until I see this change, I will not back up or down from this position.

Quote:

I am not willing to accept GW as an advanced form of Tekken

I think I understand where your going, but Im not sure where you stand because some of you sentences appear to contradict.

But, Ill go there with you as best I can.

I think GWs economy is important for PvE rewards. It should as limited to that as possible. And, imo, PvE rewards should be almost purily cosmedic.
I think this means ruining the rune and weapon ecomony.
But to fill in the gaps additional cosmedic PvE content should be put in.

I dont think its faulty to roleplay in GWs, but I do believe if you enjoy roleplaying you can find a better game. Maybe you were suggesting something along these lines with Tekken.
Hell, one can roleplay in Tekken, but.... who would?
You can roleplay starcraft or diablo too.
Maybe people found what they thought was a mmorpg with no monthly fee.

GWs can be a lot of things, yes. But...I dont think its even trying to be an rpg no more than gantlent is.
I do not believe the focus of GWs is roleplaying gameplay, but instead its on corporative and competitive gameplay. So my suggestions are to enhance that.

I think the truest form of online rpgs could be found in a game like neverwinterknights where servers are private and players create the adventures for thier friends.
I did it once, and it was the purest rp gaming experance Ive ever had.

The "guildquest" was just an idea. Its unfortante you feel the way you do about being in a guild in...Guild Wars.
I think I know how you feel from time to time though.
Guilds can feel like clics or clubs where you dont know anyone or you dont feel like you fit in.
And all this Guild vs. Guild puts us in a senario of us vs. them, enhancing all this clic stuff that guilds get into.
Then theres always drama between guildleaders, officers and members. Sometime being a member feels like being a peon that gets to have fun with pvp when guildleaders and officers wants you too.
Ive never been a leader or officer, but Im sure thier burdans feel like unneeded pressure sometimes too. (ive heard them b*tch about it)
I got suggestions to remedy this also, I just aint bring them up here.

It is astute of you to see the ramifacations of cyberspace and gaming on the collective unconscious. But you say it like its a bad thing.
Some of it may not benifit us some of it may, but all in all, its not the responsablity of artist to tell us how to precieve and apprechate his art.
They just have the right to experance the joy of making art and we can partake in this with them if we wish.
If we wish, we can play the games the developers create.

Thanks for you input though.
No ones /signed or /not signed anything yet.
I guess I clumped up to many ideas in one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The rune part I completely agree about

That means you sign right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The fame system, which has created a group of elitists who shun those of a lower rank and really kills the fun factor for newer players. Somewhat off topic, but it just bugs me so. In the end its so hard to get some good PvP experience and form a guild that can compete against these elitists to actually make a stand and maintain a decent position on the ladder. Not to mention the smurf guilds who abuse the ladder, just nonsense.

The fame system sort of bugs me too. So does the favor system.
I like the idea of fame, but I dont like the elitism it creates.
I like the idea of the favor system, but I dont like the nationalisic racisim it causes.

My idea for tweaking fame was so that tombs would operate in leagues for ranked players.
Rank would help you advance with like ranked players this way.
And for favor, I just figured it would be better for teams to represent a god and win his favor across all of the servers.
Then korea could open UW for america and everyone else if they are playing for Grenth.

Ive got nothing for smurf guilds. But I do think it would be grand if GvG matches didnt have to revolve around the ladder. Sure there is unranked matches, but Ive havent been in a guild that prefers unranked matches. I think if there was more to do in unranked matches it would be a start.

Fitz Rinley · Nov 01, 2005, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

that....was...a little heavier than anything I was trying to approch....
And a little confusing..

That's easy for me, LOL. Too much education and racing thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

I think I understand where your going, but Im not sure where you stand because some of you sentences appear to contradict.

I mean I am willing to debate and argue and growl to make GW better and drag it out of the Tekken mud pit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

I think GWs economy is important for PvE rewards.

Let the economy be limited to candy and other forms fo nastalgic drugs like they sell at shpping malls. But the basic expression of what the character is (ie. colors, guild orientation, armaments, etc.) I have truoble placing in that category. The Char carvings and so forth are good, but things that control personal expression and ability too much reflect the idea that society has no basis in supporting the expression of its individuals and their functions or beliefs. This is a primary reason we are currently watching the death count grow in the Middle East now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Hell, one can roleplay in Tekken, but.... who would?

I wouldn't. Battlemech was better. At least there one could identify a position in a society, comprehend a conceptual universe that had a completeness to it, and understand the drives behind the character development. It made since to mod battle mechs before each combat - they were machines. All citizens of Ascalon are in fact androids and we haven't been told. It is the greatest conspiracy in gaming history. They ahve no memory, no position in society, no relation to life, no life, no personal history of value, etc. Even their minds dump attribute areas at will constantly by decree of higher powers while they ahve no recollection of what they have been or ability to operate in the diversity they supposedly represent. There is no role playing even in the areas of persona the game suggests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

I think the truest form of online rpgs could be found in a game like neverwinterknights where servers are private and players create the adventures for thier friends.

I also have played NwN all the way thru. Each class is specific and some have serious imbalanced draw backs. I am curious to see how Obsidian makes the game 3.5 compatible, because in part of the skills issue. Here characterization will be more personalized I agree. My compalint with GW is it is not folowing its own structure to its logical conclusion and providing an ability to operate in a balanced expressed manner in character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Guilds can feel like clics or clubs where you dont know anyone or you dont feel like you fit in. And all this Guild vs. Guild puts us in a senario of us vs. them, enhancing all this clic stuff that guilds get into. Then theres always drama between guildleaders, officers and members. Sometime being a member feels like being a peon that gets to have fun with pvp when guildleaders and officers wants you too.

I've never joined SCA for the same reasons. I don't feel like being in High School all over again. I am a college graduate. Done deal. This Bull has his own field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

It is astute of you to see the ramifacations of cyberspace and gaming on the collective unconscious. But you say it like its a bad thing.
Some of it may not benifit us some of it may, but all in all, its not the responsablity of artist to tell us how to precieve and apprechate his art.
They just have the right to experance the joy of making art and we can partake in this with them if we wish. If we wish, we can play the games the developers create.

It is the responsibility of elders to raise children to be proper members of society. Players of this game are as young as seven that I have met in towns. I would like to be playing mostly with adults myself, because I am more comfortable there. But I also know that we can Never shirk our obligation in any forum or fail to recognize our impact in raising our children as a species. As Guild Wars is now one of the Parents, like it or not, it now has assumed part of this responsibility no matter how many legal separations it may make between itself and the public. It does change the view points and actions of tomorrows competitive minds.

Fitz Rinley

PS. I do think there are too many issues yet. But I am also playing devil's advocate to some degree. This does not mean I would not sign some of your ideas if they were refined or separated.

Goonter · Nov 01, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Let the economy be limited to candy and other forms fo nastalgic drugs like they sell at shpping malls. But the basic expression of what the character is (ie. colors, guild orientation, armaments, etc.) I have truoble placing in that category. The Char carvings and so forth are good, but things that control personal expression and ability too much reflect the idea that society has no basis in supporting the expression of its individuals and their functions or beliefs. This is a primary reason we are currently watching the death count grow in the Middle East now.

I had to read this like 10 times.
Are you telling me that purchasing dye or capes is a strangle on personal expression. And because so, like personal expression is repressed in the Middle East, the people that are forced to purchase expression in GWs are becoming negatively influenced?

Quote:

I wouldn't. Battlemech was better. At least there one could identify a position in a society, comprehend a conceptual universe that had a completeness to it, and understand the drives behind the character development. It made since to mod battle mechs before each combat - they were machines. All citizens of Ascalon are in fact androids and we haven't been told. It is the greatest conspiracy in gaming history. They ahve no memory, no position in society, no relation to life, no life, no personal history of value, etc. Even their minds dump attribute areas at will constantly by decree of higher powers while they ahve no recollection of what they have been or ability to operate in the diversity they supposedly represent. There is no role playing even in the areas of persona the game suggests.

Im getting the impression that you have strong opinions about Vatican conspiracies and the illuminati too.

Quote:

I also have played NwN all the way thru. Each class is specific and some have serious imbalanced draw backs. I am curious to see how Obsidian makes the game 3.5 compatible, because in part of the skills issue. Here characterization will be more personalized I agree. My compalint with GW is it is not folowing its own structure to its logical conclusion and providing an ability to operate in a balanced expressed manner in character.

I do think that much of the history of the peoples of Tyria is hash. When I stated playing I wanted background history on the different classes, all the bestiary and each and every different skill. Id still like some detail information as I feel like it would "draw me in". But, being how I no long consider this a roleplaying game it isnt that important to me. Its up to the writers to impresses us...good luck to them. I think most of our generation is a jaded and educated audience. It takes a lot more to turn our heads with interest.
Maybe if they read these forums (hopefully) they will see what you had to say about Battlemech and tap it as a source of inspiration for future story development.

Quote:

I've never joined SCA for the same reasons. I don't feel like being in High School all over again. I am a college graduate. Done deal. This Bull has his own field.

You shouldnt and you dont have to put up with it. And as you have stated, your not, but by sacrificing being in a team.
Its hard to find like and fair minded folks to play with. But there can be a chance in the possiblity to find them too. Good luck if you decide to search.

Quote:

It is the responsibility of elders to raise children to be proper members of society. Players of this game are as young as seven that I have met in towns. I would like to be playing mostly with adults myself, because I am more comfortable there. But I also know that we can Never shirk our obligation in any forum or fail to recognize our impact in raising our children as a species. As Guild Wars is now one of the Parents, like it or not, it now has assumed part of this responsibility no matter how many legal separations it may make between itself and the public. It does change the view points and actions of tomorrows competitive minds.

You’re placing a heavy and undue responsibility on game developers. There are laws that regulate what a seven year old can play and the state government will enforce them. But its up to the parents to enforce them so the government wouldnt have too.
Once parenting is done I think elders should relax and let their children create society. And if indirect parenting is someones thing, Id just be awesome enough to hopefully inspire goodness. Its the most Id expect to be able to do without infringing my faith on others.

Quote:

PS. I do think there are too many issues yet. But I am also playing devil's advocate to some degree. This does not mean I would not sign some of your ideas if they were refined or separated.

You broke open a can of worms and I took the bait.
My original point was to streamline the focus of GWs, by making character flexibility and teaming faster, easier and more important.
But this detour was interesting.
If you think some of the suggestions need to be refined or whatever...give it a shot.

BurningPants · Nov 02, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I think of GW to be a merge of the best elements of Warcraft 3 and Diablo combined. You have the micro-management(on a person level with skills and balancing your groups out) from Warcraft and the RPG fighting elements from Diablo. Combine that with a bit of creativity and you get Guild Wars

Fitz Rinley · Nov 02, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Are you telling me that purchasing dye or capes is a strangle on personal expression. And because so, like personal expression is repressed in the Middle East, the people that are forced to purchase expression in GWs are becoming negatively influenced?

Have you ever seen the movie Breakfast Club? You will remember each child represents one of Robert K. Merton's archtypes conformist/jock, princess/ritualist, brain/innovator, basketcase/retreatist, and criminal/rebel. The jock accepts societies goals and means for obtaining those goals. The princess has to do what others do, but does not really find satisfaction in the goal, only the means of society - the peer pressure is satisfying. The brain seeks the goals but does not care for the means. It is the Judd Nelsons and Alley Sheedies that are negatively influenced in every society, unless that society makes a place for them. It is the nature of youth to protest, so we maintain a pretesting society for youth where they suddenly wake up with a haircut and a job. The greater marketability is in understanding and allowing for the individualism that you market too, not in punishing it by making it alone what must be purchased. What should be purchased and chased are temporary easter-eggs. Things related to special events like we had with the Mad King, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Im getting the impression that you have strong opinions about Vatican conspiracies and the illuminati too.

Actually conspiracies are too difficult to pull off. Too many loose ends and human beings aren't that perfect. They just make for great scape goats when society needs blood. Movements are another matter, and much more deadly.
No, I am very upset with the limited attribute system and character development. It is an issue that bothers me everytime I boot the game. I detest the way the icons are treated as reprogrammable robots. The skill slots I can see as meaning this is what equipment the character has to support or use what he knows. The idea that what he knows can never be effective enough to manage more than 2.5 attribute areas is disgusting to me. It make the secondary class worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Maybe if they read these forums (hopefully) they will see what you had to say about Battlemech and tap it as a source of inspiration for future story development.

I know its a lot for a quote free game, but there are people that would work on it. Look at the CEP Team in NwN. There are certainly fans that are that dedicated, and definately college students that would kill for the chance to intern on such a project (even the non-computer side for a company story and/or development internship).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

You’re placing a heavy and undue responsibility on game developers. There are laws that regulate what a seven year old can play and the state government will enforce them. But its up to the parents to enforce them so the government wouldnt have too.

We all know such laws are virtually (sic) unenforceable. We also know that parenting is difficult or non-existent if they are working two to three jobs and trying to keep up with extra-curricular activities of 2.5 or more kids. Inspite of the tremendous number of things where I do not agree with Hilary Clinton, that raising children takes a community is not only a truth, it takes a society. We either are a society, or we are not. We have only two choices: socialism (society) or anarchy. It seems people would like to believe their responsibility for thinking ends with themselves, but the ramifications of what they do, how they eat, drive, spend, or even tune out the news has a rippling impact on distant shores. That impact has come home once. While no person can ever be completely aware at all times. It is now time we awaken and act as members of an eternal society vigilant in its humanity for the future of all in every thought, word, and deed. No work, and especially not those that we will spend hours being edutained by, such as computer games, sitcoms, and docudramas, can shirk that responsibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

You broke open a can of worms and I took the bait.
My original point was to streamline the focus of GWs, by making character flexibility and teaming faster, easier and more important.
But this detour was interesting.

If you think some of the suggestions need to be refined or whatever...give it a shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

1. Teams see teammates skill bars in a team menu.
Dont guess, dont take someones word for it. Everyone will have the oppertunity to see what thier team is lining up and can plan accordingly to each others skill selection.

I'm for a completely separate screen that comes up with its own background at the beginning of mission entry or before departing. Let it have three sections. Left attribute points. Right Skill Bars. Bottom Chat window. When each member has an understanding of their agreed to role and applied skills then they can hit the enter button in the lower right. Each player gets an <BAck> and <Enter> button at lower right. Team leader as an additional <Cancel> button and can start over if needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

2. Henchmen. Now that we can see what everyone is bringing, why not let henchmen have more than 6 or so skills.

No problem. Use same as above and Team Leader can toggle thru each persons/henchies' inventory of skills. He is party leader and coordinator anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

3. Build sets.

Not sure about where to place the buttons or entry points for it and I think other things could be expanded instead in the next release.
Harping: This would not be necessary if the brains of character were not treated like a computer 2k hard drive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

4. Runes.

Runes can be over ridden without losing your armor. Most are not worth anything anyway. I can see the flexibility part here, but I think this might hinge on powering up. If a character can carry around 7 different Superior Runes to swap in and out at will then it is a problem in power gaming as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

5. Changing Secondary Profession.

I am not going to say people don't change their professions. I once saw a lady speak before the House of Commons about not being too old to change. She talked years in other professions, and then being asked to perform a job for which she had no experience and little formal qualification. She did so well she was asked again. That was Margaret Thatcher. However, my professions are intrinsic to what my characters are. I have no reason to change them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

6. Weapons. Do it just like armor. There isnt armor with +9 armor vs. physcal... Its +10 and thats all. Add weapons crafters with weapons mods that are +10 sundering or +5 energy all the time. Basiclly everything that armor is in GWs so should weapons be. Instantly customized, 15k versions, you get the picture. All options and all mods are avalibule at max potentual at selectable crafters.

I detest the running game that permeates the world of Tyria. I like being able to go place and do things, but no one is trying to work through it. I know they have tried to slow down the number of 2nd level players with Droks armor, but this suggestion will just increase the market for running. Something ethical PvE players wouldn't be doing for items to begin with. Maybe for exploration, but what is going on economically is game wrecking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

7. This would also discourage to some degree the reptitively rewarding process of farming. To those that play to accumulate wealth, there are still options and much better things to show for it in my following suggestions.

I assume you mean hunting. I hunt for gold pieces constantly. I SS almost everything. The rest I have put into storage. Hunting is the only way I have of getting enough money to do anything I need to do and finding dye. (In almost 45-50 levels of charcter development I have found 1 black dye got 1 character to 19th level. Dumped 3-4 characters at near start. Acquired my cape. And managed to get Ventari Armor.) I have never purposely farmed, by getting myself killed to grow the level of the moster up before trying to take it out for a better prize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

8. Completing quest and missions always rewards higher than killing mobs. This would be like shifting the purpose to go to UW or SF to complete the quest there and not farming for ecto or green weapons.
(teambased)

I start doing missions and quests when killing monsters is of no value. Higher xp would only benefit here. Even if the monsters didn't drop weapons and gold, until they are worthless in xp, the missions and quests hold no value. Only when a mission or quest is the sole way in which I can raise is it important. Otherwise I have waisted character potential, which has no role playing value.

Fitz Rinley

Goonter · Nov 02, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Well Rinley...It looks like you have a lot of set ideas on how things should operate.
Whether your right or wrong I wont debate because a lot of what we have been discussing isnt what my orignal points were.

Ive noticed some debate on if PvP characters should have more outfit options. I think with these types of changes, it wouldnt be as much of a consern because people would use their PvE characters in highly competitive PvP matches all the time.

Another suggestion. This isnt really important, but I think it would add a lot of flavor, and the event with the Pumpkin King sort of got me thinking...

16.Emote Menu (easy use and fun)
It would nice to have an emote menu.
For every emote you have you can just click on the emote instead of having to type it out.
Yeah, its sort of lazy...but it would streamline...the process of emoting...
If lots of emote where added to spice up GWs it would be super to have.

Plus id say you could can emote towards a specific person.
So it coud say something like - Goonter taunts Shug Nastie, Goonter congradulates Sheong Mina, Goonter salutes Captin Caveman.
That would be splendid, huh?

Goonter · Nov 12, 2005, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Well, with all the new attention that new updates have brought, I thought it would be a good time to add a new suggestion to my growing list of suggestions here to streamline the game.

[edit]

Hannibel · Nov 12, 2005, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Too much to read

Goonter · Nov 15, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannibel

Too much to read

Yeah, it is a lot to read.
I edited a lot to sum up anything that Im suggesting to be discussed from the first thread.
The first thread is a bit much too, but the following post vear off topic.
Not following them wouldnt miss you much.

Loviatar · Nov 16, 2005, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I ID an armour, Superior Vigor, salvage attempt fails but all my PvP characters can now use a Superior Vigor? Doesn't seem fair.
.

unless they have made a big change just recently you are guaranteed salvage on your runes.

also for an experiment buying a major rune of xxx will give you a very good idea of the results of a superior at a fraction of those plat.

Goonter · Nov 16, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

also for an experiment buying a major rune of xxx will give you a very good idea of the results of a superior at a fraction of those plat.

I didnt like major runes, but the prices have had me experimenting with them and because so, Im less prejaduce against them now.

I still feel the current state discourages the use of PvE characters crossing into PvP realm for lack of flexablity.
Though minor, I think is one of a few minor issues that equal into a larger incentive for PvE players to not involve themselves with PvP.

Goonter · Nov 18, 2005, 06:25 AM // 06:25

I should have added this idea in the beginning.

I was thinking of how, even with my ideas, ultimalty PvP characters trump PvE characters because of skill flexablity.
But I didnt want to dimish the value of aquiring skills for a PvE character by saying, "once skills are unlocked for PvP characters they are for PvE characters too" like people often suggest.

In this idea PvE characters do take advantage of PvP unlocks but that doesnt mean you can just take it when you like, how you like.
You have to move within the flexablity of your characters EXP. and it cost you a little ingame money.

17. Skill Point Sell Back. (character flexablity and saves time)
You pay a NPC trainer 1k to sell a secondary skill back to him for 1 skill point.
This way you can take your W/Mo and turn him into a completely reformed W/E in seconds....if you have that kind of money.
The catch is, you can only buy skills with this skill point from the skills you already have unlocked on your account.
It would take 1k to buy a skill, 1k to sell it back and 1k to get another one equaling 3k to change a skill you already have unlocked.
Is it worth it?
You dont have to get a million or more exp. points to unlock all skills on one character to make it a flexable primary.
It saves time, it adds flexable...its a money sink. Maybe its worth it.

Say you want to make your Mo/W into a Mo/Me with intrest in only two Mesmer skills. If youve unlocked those skills already and have 4k on you then your luck.
Dont roll that PvP created monk. Take your unique, stylized monk into PvP no sooner than you sell back two warrior skills you never use and purchase the two mesmer skills in there place.

Maybe you created a W/R and purchased all of the expertise skills to unlock the account. But you never use them with your PvE warrior because..warriors dont have the expertise attribute.
Now you can sell those skills back and purchase something else useful to your warrior.